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ZENITH R
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 6419
Location: North Derbyshire
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:08 pm Post subject: Paddy Kenny |
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It's easy to blame Kenny, if you make a mistake as a goal keeper the opposition score. No other player on the pitch has that burden, and this season alone there have been plenty of errors by other players.
On Saturday, Yakubu's shot swerved just beyond Kenny's finger tips - Kenny wasn't slow to react, or badly positioned, he was beaten by the swerve (Yakubu hit it perfectly.)
The second goal due to very poor marking, Nzonzi had the freedom of Ewood Park to pick his spot, again Kenny nearly saved it, but stood little chance when our defence had been so poor.
The third took a wicked deflection up and over him
Paddy Kenny let in 3 goals on Saturday, but I think it's harsh to blame him, others were far more culpable in the build up to all three goals than Paddy Kenny.
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flatfoot
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 1696
Location: st margarets
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Paddy Kenny |
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| ZENITH R wrote: | It's easy to blame Kenny, if you make a mistake as a goal keeper the opposition score. No other player on the pitch has that burden, and this season alone there have been plenty of errors by other players.
On Saturday, Yakubu's shot swerved just beyond Kenny's finger tips - Kenny wasn't slow to react, or badly positioned, he was beaten by the swerve (Yakubu hit it perfectly.)
The second goal due to very poor marking, Nzonzi had the freedom of Ewood Park to pick his spot, again Kenny nearly saved it, but stood little chance when our defence had been so poor.
The third took a wicked deflection up and over him
Paddy Kenny let in 3 goals on Saturday, but I think it's harsh to blame him, others were far more culpable in the build up to all three goals than Paddy Kenny. |
But then you have to ask yourself the question..if a keeper had screamed at Fitz Hall to get tight, and "no shot" he may not have got one away. Plus, Kenny committed too early, his weight had shifted on to his left foot and thus he did not have a strong hand to compensate for any late deviation.
Again, the second goal. A keeper that commands his box, pushes players up which would have left Nzonzi tightly marked or outside the box looking for space...
No comment on the third goal, though.
This is my point: there are plenty of unseen things that make a great goalkeeper. And most of it is unseen by those who have not studied the science... |
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bongo king
Level 2 dot.orger
Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 784
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Paddy Kenny |
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| ZENITH R wrote: | It's easy to blame Kenny, if you make a mistake as a goal keeper the opposition score. No other player on the pitch has that burden, and this season alone there have been plenty of errors by other players.
On Saturday, Yakubu's shot swerved just beyond Kenny's finger tips - Kenny wasn't slow to react, or badly positioned, he was beaten by the swerve (Yakubu hit it perfectly.)
The second goal due to very poor marking, Nzonzi had the freedom of Ewood Park to pick his spot, again Kenny nearly saved it, but stood little chance when our defence had been so poor.
The third took a wicked deflection up and over him
Paddy Kenny let in 3 goals on Saturday, but I think it's harsh to blame him, others were far more culpable in the build up to all three goals than Paddy Kenny. |
Just watched the goals again and I'm sorry but first goal - beaten down the middle - second goal - done at his near post. Second half you see taarabt shoot in almost exactly the same position as Nzonzi, to the same place (actually a better shot IMO) and Robinson saves it fairly comfortably.
Kenny is not the be all and end all reason we lost by any means, but recent performances compared to oppo goalkeepers have been pretty damning, both when you compare the performance e.g. Hennesy's saves which were good without being world class and the statistics (e.g. 0 shots saved vs blackburn compared with 5 saves for robinson....) the only game I remember him doing well recently was Villa.
As per earlier post I'm not sure if it's just his current form or if he's simply not good enough.... |
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flatfoot
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 1696
Location: st margarets
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Micky wrote: | | Mr Beef wrote: | | flatfoot wrote: | | Micky wrote: | | flatfoot wrote: | Nope, anyone who listened to me last season would have heard me say the same thing about Kenny. Didn't think he was good enough for us last season, thought we could have done better with someone else between the sticks, feel no different this season.
I have just brought it up because I might not be on my own in my opinion at this stage... |
Yeah you're right I often wonder how much better we'd have done last season without Kenny. I can't help but think that his 24 clean sheets and player of the year award were tarnished by his poor positioning for the goals he conceded and his failure to shout loudly at his defence. |
That's the problem with people's opinions on goalkeepers - most people don't have a clue what they are talking about. Just ask Arsene Wenger... |
Thankfully we've got you to put us right. A better keeper would have got 30 clean sheets. |
It's ok- he's a goalkeeper. Perhaps Mark Hughes should give you a game, flatfoot? |
Be happy to help...I'll bring my boots to the Fulham game. |
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BiscuitRanger
Level 3 dot.orger
Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 2816
Location: Unit 6
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Paddy Kenny |
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| flatfoot wrote: | | ZENITH R wrote: | It's easy to blame Kenny, if you make a mistake as a goal keeper the opposition score. No other player on the pitch has that burden, and this season alone there have been plenty of errors by other players.
On Saturday, Yakubu's shot swerved just beyond Kenny's finger tips - Kenny wasn't slow to react, or badly positioned, he was beaten by the swerve (Yakubu hit it perfectly.)
The second goal due to very poor marking, Nzonzi had the freedom of Ewood Park to pick his spot, again Kenny nearly saved it, but stood little chance when our defence had been so poor.
The third took a wicked deflection up and over him
Paddy Kenny let in 3 goals on Saturday, but I think it's harsh to blame him, others were far more culpable in the build up to all three goals than Paddy Kenny. |
But then you have to ask yourself the question..if a keeper had screamed at Fitz Hall to get tight, and "no shot" he may not have got one away. Plus, Kenny committed too early, his weight had shifted on to his left foot and thus he did not have a strong hand to compensate for any late deviation.
Again, the second goal. A keeper that commands his box, pushes players up which would have left Nzonzi tightly marked or outside the box looking for space...
No comment on the third goal, though.
This is my point: there are plenty of unseen things that make a great goalkeeper. And most of it is unseen by those who have not studied the science... |
Science, are you sure? Aren't you just talking about technique and communication skills? Obviously there is an element of natural athleticism, bravery and instinct, but none of this could be classed as a science.
Unless, of course, Nail Technology is also a science.
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flatfoot
Level 3 dot.orger
Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 1696
Location: st margarets
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Paddy Kenny |
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| BiscuitRanger wrote: | | flatfoot wrote: | | ZENITH R wrote: | It's easy to blame Kenny, if you make a mistake as a goal keeper the opposition score. No other player on the pitch has that burden, and this season alone there have been plenty of errors by other players.
On Saturday, Yakubu's shot swerved just beyond Kenny's finger tips - Kenny wasn't slow to react, or badly positioned, he was beaten by the swerve (Yakubu hit it perfectly.)
The second goal due to very poor marking, Nzonzi had the freedom of Ewood Park to pick his spot, again Kenny nearly saved it, but stood little chance when our defence had been so poor.
The third took a wicked deflection up and over him
Paddy Kenny let in 3 goals on Saturday, but I think it's harsh to blame him, others were far more culpable in the build up to all three goals than Paddy Kenny. |
But then you have to ask yourself the question..if a keeper had screamed at Fitz Hall to get tight, and "no shot" he may not have got one away. Plus, Kenny committed too early, his weight had shifted on to his left foot and thus he did not have a strong hand to compensate for any late deviation.
Again, the second goal. A keeper that commands his box, pushes players up which would have left Nzonzi tightly marked or outside the box looking for space...
No comment on the third goal, though.
This is my point: there are plenty of unseen things that make a great goalkeeper. And most of it is unseen by those who have not studied the science... |
Science, are you sure? Aren't you just talking about technique and communication skills? Obviously there is an element of natural athleticism, bravery and instinct, but none of this could be classed as a science.
Unless, of course, Nail Technology is also a science. |
Is it an art, then? I always felt it was too technical for that, but there is a certain poetry in predicting the unknown... |
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NewcastleR
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Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Whitley Bay
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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"Paddy Kenny: Science, art or poetry? Discuss." Feel like I'm sitting my A-Levels again!
Nice thread, this. Sincerely. (just about) avoids personal insult!
Flatfoot, an honest question to what appears to be a decent level keeper. Is a clean sheet a clean sheet however you keep it for your special breed? Or are some shut-outs better than others.
Is this like the keeping equivalent of route-one football vrs free-flowing pass and move? Ultimately both might result in a goal, but you don't get awarded any more if your move involves more than five passes?
Your suggestion appears to be that a commanding keeper is better than a shot-stopper? I'm just trying to understand the argument.
Personally, I don't much much care how he keeps them out, as long as he does. And if he thinks he can keep more goals out by staying at home than going wondering, then that's just fine with me. Here's a keeper, I would suggest, who knows his strengths and weaknesses and plays to them. Much like any outfield player would.
I would suggest Paddy is the very least of our concerns and, as someone said in a thread elsewhere, the biggest problem appears to be a group of individuals who aren't adding up to what it really should, where last season was very much the reverse.
Agree with one point though. Paddy's planted-feet 'could do nothing with that one' seems to be frustratingly on the increase. |
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flatfoot
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
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Location: st margarets
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| NewcastleR wrote: | "Paddy Kenny: Science, art or poetry? Discuss." Feel like I'm sitting my A-Levels again!
Nice thread, this. Sincerely. (just about) avoids personal insult!
Flatfoot, an honest question to what appears to be a decent level keeper. Is a clean sheet a clean sheet however you keep it for your special breed? Or are some shut-outs better than others.
Is this like the keeping equivalent of route-one football vrs free-flowing pass and move? Ultimately both might result in a goal, but you don't get awarded any more if your move involves more than five passes?
Your suggestion appears to be that a commanding keeper is better than a shot-stopper? I'm just trying to understand the argument.
Personally, I don't much much care how he keeps them out, as long as he does. And if he thinks he can keep more goals out by staying at home than going wondering, then that's just fine with me. Here's a keeper, I would suggest, who knows his strengths and weaknesses and plays to them. Much like any outfield player would.
I would suggest Paddy is the very least of our concerns and, as someone said in a thread elsewhere, the biggest problem appears to be a group of individuals who aren't adding up to what it really should, where last season was very much the reverse.
Agree with one point though. Paddy's planted-feet 'could do nothing with that one' seems to be frustratingly on the increase. |
Ideally you'd want a strong keeper who can stop shots but , ultimately, if you can get a keeper between the sticks who can marshal the defenders in front of him to limit the amount of shots at him, then you are giving yourself a much higher chance of a 'shutout'.
Are some clean sheets better than others. Undoubtedly. If you can stop a side from even get a sniff of goal, surely that's better than a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, 'we woz lucky' clean sheet? |
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ngb_qpr
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Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1287
Location: a corner of a foreign town that is forever W12
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| flatfoot, out of interest what level did you play at? |
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flatfoot
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Location: st margarets
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ngb_qpr wrote: | | flatfoot, out of interest what level did you play at? |
What would now be Ryman leagues.... |
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NewcastleR
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Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 509
Location: Whitley Bay
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Flats. All of a sudden, I'm fascinated by keepers.
So, another question. What's the purists choice? And when I say purist, I mean which form of keeping is the Barca 'tiki-taki' kind and which is more hoofball?
Sounds like a marshall is your idea of keeper porn while a shot-stopper leaves you a little flaccid.
Last edited by NewcastleR on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark C
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Location: Laaandon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I've never really liked the term 'shot stopper', I mean what's the opposite?
In school I played in goal and was pretty good but at the end of the day if the ball is hit right at me I'd stop it, is that what define's a good shot stopper? I've never liked the term and whenever I've asked someone to explain 'exactly' what it is I am unimpressed and unconinced by their description of it.
I've always thought of it as somewhat of a 'media-ism' for somebody pretending that they actually know something about goalkeepers when in fact they know naff all.
People have labelled many a keeper a good shot stopper over the years to average players, does that mean that the top keepers are not good shot stoppers or do they get some other kind of superlative attached to them instead because I've never heard anything else attributed to keepers other than that awfully vague term
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Desert Pilot
yellow card
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Paddy Kenny |
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| flatfoot wrote: | I am curious as to how other people see Mr Kenny.
As a keeper myself, who played to a decent standard, I see many, many flaws in him.
He is a headline keeper, one that makes a name for himself for being a shot stopper, which is fine, but it is papering over the cracks in his all-round game.
His positioning at times is not up to scratch. He is unable or unwilling (or both) to come out of his goal to effect anything threatening outside the six-yard box. In fact, on too many occasions to count, he is bolt static on his line as balls are flying across his goal line.
I would be interested to hear those who spend more time than me in close proximity to him during games, but from what I have seen, his bossing of his area is ineffectual. He is too quiet, and anything he does shout is not particularly helpful.
He has some fundamental flaws that, at his age, do not look likely to be trained out of him. He has also developed a new trick, which is something that keepers playing above their pay grade have a tendency to do - the stand up and watch the ball syndrome.
Count the amount of goals where Kenny is left standing static in his goal this season. Every one of them has been too good for him. Now watch how many other keepers stand and stare at a ball as it flies past them. They dive because they believe they have the ability to effect the ball. Kenny doesn't.
He makes defenders nervous, they are unsure about where he is or will be (one defender I played with who went on to better things once told me he can defend 20% better if he knows that his goalkeeper is going to be taking care of anything between goal and the penalty spot) and there is a hesitancy when the ball rebounds to them in the six-yard box because Kenny is too slow in coming to claim it (which they expect).
Cerny has never been a dominant keeper, but his assuredness between the sticks is in marked contrast to Kenny.
My only hope is that Eddie Niedzwiecki would have already spotted this. Will watch the keeper situation in the close season with interest... |
And just think he was our player of the year over Taarabt - unbelievable! |
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Damien
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 7402
Location: Hitchin
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| PeterS wrote: | there is a reason we are in the bottom five and Swansea and Norwich are ok. We went up (comfortably) with Adel running the show and in the Championship he ruled supreme. Our back 4/5 were rock solid and Ali and Shaun sat in front of them to give them amazing protection. The problem is that the pace of the Prem means we are exposed and Derry can't run the midfield in the way he did last year. Paddy made great saves (his forte) and didn't need to manage the defence as much.
There are a host of other reasons why we are struggling but ironically we were the best team in Cship last year and the least equipped to cope in the Prem. Some of us said this at the start of the season and were laughed at. |
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Esox Lucius
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
Posts: 9908
Location: Banbury, Oxon.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Just a little flavour to this. When Harry first arrived at Loftus Road I used to watch from the front of the Loft just a hair to the right of the right hand goal post so had a very good view of what was going on in the six yard box week in and week out. One very noticeable thing was that Fenwick was constantly urging him and telling him what to do as his first reaction was to stay on his line. It became a bit of a standing joke among the little group of us who stood together in that area. I would estimate that this went on for over half a season before Seaman got confident enough to come for crosses or not and start to command his area. He was always a great keeper from day one but it seemed a bit anomalous that he needed Fenwick to tell him to stay or go.
Akinfeev is a good shout but if, as we hope, Wolves disappear and we survive then I think Hennessey could be good and maybe Keiron Westwood could be persuaded to leave Sunderland if he was offered first choice keeper.
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